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Thread: .045 vertical up

  1. #1
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    Cool .045 vertical up

    hey-ah: anyone no if .045 hardwire can be welded in a vertical up procedure
    on 1" mild steel , or lets say Cert. (test plate)
    and any volts and amps settings would be cool too !!!!!!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by yesdear20003
    hey-ah: anyone no if .045 hardwire can be welded in a vertical up procedure
    on 1" mild steel , or lets say Cert. (test plate)
    and any volts and amps settings would be cool too !!!!!!
    From the .045 wire I am going to assume you are talking about MIG welding.

    The funny thing about MIG welding "vertical up" is that if you penetrate fully, it is very hard to maintain a nice bead. It often creates a large dropping puddle, and will even run or drip. If you don't fully penetrate then it is not to bad.

    Sometimes you have to start and stop with long waits in between if you are going for full penetration, especially where you are welding something with a blind side. Like some extrusion gussets that are welded in at a forty five. You want to make sure you don't leave an un- welded crack in the blind spot. You tend to go hot, but then you can't just go straight up non-stop.

    I don't know what they require today for certification though.

    If you are using 0.045 wire make sure you have some blue suede welding garments.

    Today in many industries, they do not penetrate fully anymore, so I really can't say what is approved and what is not.

    Are you going to make passes from both sides of a chamfered plate, that is to be butt welded?
    Or are you going to butt weld a fully chamfered plate from one side only?

    If you are doing the one side only, you might want to start and stop to totally penetrate it. You can also tack it with close together hot spot tacks and then go back and fill in between the tacks, very hot.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Nuts and bolts

  3. #3
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    Oklahoma
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    From the .045 wire I am going to assume you are talking about MIG welding.

    The funny thing about MIG welding "vertical up" is that if you penetrate fully, it is very hard to maintain a nice bead. It often creates a large dropping puddle, and will even run or drip. If you don't fully penetrate then it is not to bad.

    Sometimes you have to start and stop with long waits in between if you are going for full penetration, especially where you are welding something with a blind side. Like some extrusion gussets that are welded in at a forty five. You want to make sure you don't leave an un- welded crack in the blind spot. You tend to go hot, but then you can't just go straight up non-stop.


    I don't know what they require today for certification though.

    If you are using 0.045 wire make sure you have some blue suede welding garments.

    Today in many industries, they do not penetrate fully anymore, so I really can't say what is approved and what is not.



    Are you going to make passes from both sides of a chamfered plate, that is to be butt welded?
    Or are you going to butt weld a fully chamfered plate from one side only?

    If you are doing the one side only, you might want to start and stop to totally penetrate it. You can also tack it with close together hot spot tacks and then go back and fill in between the tacks, very hot.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick



    First off If done properly you can create a beautiful weld with .045 vertical up.
    Second if this is a cert. test You do not want to start and stop to let things cool if you are burning thru adjust voltage, wire, or travel speed to suit the joint and penetration.
    Third do not use this start /stop method on anything for a cert requiring 100% penetration.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    From the .045 wire I am going to assume you are talking about MIG welding.

    The funny thing about MIG welding "vertical up" is that if you penetrate fully, it is very hard to maintain a nice bead. It often creates a large dropping puddle, and will even run or drip. If you don't fully penetrate then it is not to bad.

    Sometimes you have to start and stop with long waits in between if you are going for full penetration, especially where you are welding something with a blind side. Like some extrusion gussets that are welded in at a forty five. You want to make sure you don't leave an un- welded crack in the blind spot. You tend to go hot, but then you can't just go straight up non-stop.
    Ok, the only time that your puddle will droop, run, or drip during vert-up is if you are running way too hot. If possible, avoid starting and stopping in the middle of your weld bead. On a 1" plate, it will tend to get hot after a couple of passes, so if you are welding to a procedure, make sure that you know what the interpass temp is so that you don't overheat the plate.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Pruett
    First off If done properly you can create a beautiful weld with .045 vertical up.
    Second if this is a cert. test You do not want to start and stop to let things cool if you are burning thru adjust voltage, wire, or travel speed to suit the joint and penetration.
    Third do not use this start /stop method on anything for a cert requiring 100% penetration.
    If you are doing multiple passes you are not penetrating the plate. You are simulating penetration by multiple passes. The problem with multiple passes is shrinkage. So many times the best welders get done with a fork lift component that should not even be welded, to have it cool and crack, from all the passes shrinking up.

    Part of the reason for MIG becoming so popular, is that it can often do in one pass what took many with an ARC rod. Today in actuality we use MIG wire with a lot of glass because almost always the work is not cleaned to the degree necessary to use a wire with less glass. When you start making passes you enter in yet another variable into the already infinite variable introduced by welding.

    I totally understand what you are saying, you are absolutely right though. If you are getting certified I can't imagine that starting and stopping is a good thing.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Nuts and bolts

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by WELDRWOMN
    Ok, the only time that your puddle will droop, run, or drip during vert-up is if you are running way too hot. If possible, avoid starting and stopping in the middle of your weld bead. On a 1" plate, it will tend to get hot after a couple of passes, so if you are welding to a procedure, make sure that you know what the interpass temp is so that you don't overheat the plate.

    I have to agree with that to some extent. Obviously if it was cooler it would not run. But you will find that many welders today and especially on this forum have smaller machines, with thinner wire. And to compensate on thicker material, they use this thinner wire by moving along slowly, and creating and maintaining a very hot spot to create penetration. This is not so bad if you have a tight seem and use 98/2 Argon Oxygen for steel. But when you go to fill in a poor fit, you can curse the devil, trying to do it with a vertical up. And of course it will be on a giant fork lift for moving boats in a boat yard, that you just cannot lay down.

    I forever find myself in someone's shop welding with their machine that is not nearly big enough to do the job. But because I have been welding since I was a little kid I usually get it done. After many others have quit.

    Years ago the first big MIG welders did not have capacitors. Most people would not believe how weak some of those machines were. Compared to some of the tiny machines today that have capacitors. I got used to setting up and welding on those machines. So I can often lay down a pretty nice bead on heavy stuff, with some of the tiny little machines of today.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Nuts and bolts

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    If you are doing multiple passes you are not penetrating the plate. You are simulating penetration by multiple passes.
    Let us know how you lay down a 1.5inch thick weld with one pass of .045....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRX61
    Let us know how you lay down a 1.5inch thick weld with one pass of .045....
    No way no how. Never implied you could.

    But I stand on the fact that if you weld it with the 0.045 wire. You are not welding it and penetrating it. You are simulating welding it and penetrating it.

    You are actually using filler material to build up a gap or fill in a crack. Often times the results are fascinatingly strong and resilient. Other times they crack as they cool. Or crack under load test.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Nuts and bolts

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    No way no how. Never implied you could.

    But I stand on the fact that if you weld it with the 0.045 wire. You are not welding it and penetrating it. You are simulating welding it and penetrating it.

    You are actually using filler material to build up a gap or fill in a crack. Often times the results are fascinatingly strong and resilient. Other times they crack as they cool. Or crack under load test.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If the plate is beveled and the welds made by a competent weldor You can penetrate the base metal with multple passes. Just like any other process if you bevel two pieces of 6" schedule 40 pipe 1) run a root (100% pen)
    2) Run a hot pass or fill 3) Cap ( depending on pos. of pipe 1 pass or multiple passes for cap. You have just (if done properly) welded a joint with multiple passes that will pass x-ray.
    So I really don't see why you think you can't run multiple passes on a 1" thick beveled joint and get full pen.Please explain

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Pruett
    If the plate is beveled and the welds made by a competent weldor You can penetrate the base metal with multple passes. Just like any other process if you bevel two pieces of 6" schedule 40 pipe 1) run a root (100% pen)
    2) Run a hot pass or fill 3) Cap ( depending on pos. of pipe 1 pass or multiple passes for cap. You have just (if done properly) welded a joint with multiple passes that will pass x-ray.
    So I really don't see why you think you can't run multiple passes on a 1" thick beveled joint and get full pen.Please explain
    Penetration if you are going to penetrate, is done in one pass. If you make multiple passes you are simulating penetration. And you introduce an infinite number of other variables, into the infinitely variable art of welding.

    I am saying technically to penetrate, means to penetrate in one shot. Just like a bullet.

    If I had to fire a gun four times to penetrate a car door, I could not say I penetrated the car door with a bullet from the gun. I could say after four tries I penetrated the door.

    If you design a welding rod to bond two pieces of metal together ideally, and then instead of doing that you make multiple passes, over the filler material, you have changed the original plan.

    Don't get me wrong, I make multiple passes all the time, it is usually part and parcel of welding. However it is not welding it is building up, because you don't have enough heat and filler material. Often building up will cause incredibly brittle welds. This is often not a good thing. Especially on crane and hoisting equipment.

    If your joints are of different lengths, the long weld may be brittle and the short weld soft. Because of the way they cool down between passes. And as someone mentioned if you start and stop, you change up the whole scenario as well.

    Welding is not scientific, it is hit and miss. The x-ray machine proves this time and time again.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Nuts and bolts

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